Who are you?

Yes. So I am Jen. And who I am is a black woman. I think of myself as a sister, a daughter, a granddaughter, a wife, a friend. And many of my friends are actually now part of my family. They're friends, but they're really family members. I think of myself and who I am as a collaborator. My background is as a researcher and scientist. Those are some elements of who I am and how I think of myself.

How do you identify?

Yes, I identify as a black woman. I think there's many elements and layers to that. There's many intersections that are happening there. Many, many layers to being a black woman.

How do you want to/prefer to be seen?

For me, it connects back to the questions that you asked about who I am or how I describe myself, how I identify. It is important to me to be seen. I think it's in some ways connected to my personality, but it is also connected very much to family legacy and the way my parents raised me and my brother and where they really did a lot of work with us around trying to create experiences where were at least exposed to different dynamics in the world or exposed to things that we would at least have a kind of sense about and familiarity and that people couldn't say, oh, you don't know what this is, and try to make us feel separate or othered.

I think those exposure moments also helped us to become more comfortable in spaces where we could say: okay, well, I don't know about this, but I can just ask. I can be interested in something. I don't have to know everything. And sometimes being exposed to enough moments or challenges or experiences or opportunities, it teaches you how to be seen and to speak up in spaces that are new or unknown. And then I think the other dynamic of being seen is also something that my parents really instilled in both my brother and me, but they did it in different ways because of gender dynamics and because of some of the dynamics that we were talking about being a black woman in spaces. And that sense of sometimes you have to be prepared.

They wanted to prepare me to speak for myself, to advocate for myself, to take up space and be seen, because people are not always going to give it to you or to act in a way to help you or to help others. I think people don't act in those moments for a variety of reasons. Historical, gendered, racial dynamics, that's still real for black women. And so my parents really tried to build a sense of confidence and exposure and experience, but also a kind of sensibility that you must take up space and it's important to be seen because people aren't going to necessarily do that for you or feel a sense of obligation. I try to think about that in moments and in professional settings.

It takes work, like that's a process to walk into a space and be like: I am here to contribute and this is what I can bring to the table and this will advance because I am entering this space, taking up space, and being seen. In my personal and family and friend life it's not work, it's not an energy expenditure, and it's not a process. In certain new settings where I'm entering into a new social space or meeting people for the first time, then it takes a little bit more work and process to get there. And then in professional settings it takes work, and it takes practice. Someone described it for me once and how they have witnessed me doing it as a black woman with all my identities and layers navigating this world: it takes a certain level of irrational confidence.

And so I have to kind of gear myself up to get there in order to be seen in some moments and do what it takes. Then in other more personal spaces it's not work it doesn't feel like so much of an energy expenditure process. That feels different and I’m grateful that it feels different in those personal spaces and moments.

And I have a follow up around experience where you talked about how your parents wanted to expose you and your brother [to new things]. Did they tell you why they were doing that?

Oh, yeah. I think for them it was also about how and when they grew up and limitations or opportunities that were not presented to them or that they couldn't access. And so they wanted to create those opportunities for my brother and I in some ways because they didn't have those paths or opportunities or they were limited from those because they were expected to do something else because of how they grew up and their family dynamics and work opportunities that they felt they could have done but the structures and exposure wasn't there. And so I think they were intentional about it. After the fact they would make certain points to us, but also in the moment they would do that too.

Whether it was going to Chicago and experiencing Chicago, having grown up outside of Chicago, or trying different things, going to museums, going to restaurants, or other even simple things, they wanted us to always feel that we could navigate these spaces because they sometimes had experiences where people were either limiting them in those spaces or trying to kind of either show them up or use certain moments and spaces to really be like, oh, see, I told you this person isn't it. They're not ready for this. They're not part of this. They're other. I think they wanted us to have those moments of exposure, but to also be clear and understand what's happening: you belong in this space.

You can enter this restaurant, you can be curious about art, books, movies, museums, travel. I think they were often quite intentional about it in the moment and trying to help both my brother and I understand that. And then I think, in moments they were recognizing our daughter will be a black woman in spaces in the future, and we need to prepare now for what that's going to be. And maybe the world will change over time as she grows up, but probably not.

Thank you for [sharing that with] me. Yeah. I'm glad they did that. Even though it's unfortunate that, like, you have to…that we have to… Well, I'm not a black woman, [but] as a black person, that we have to be prepared for that.

Could you tell me why you live in a city?

Yes. So I appreciate cities for their variety, the opportunity, even if it's not always something that is easily accessible or immediately accessible because of finances or limited space or whatever the dynamic might be. That's always some limitation or obstacle. But I feel like in cities, there's this kind of sense of possibility. And so I really enjoy that about cities. I like talking about this in the context of some of my most favorite cities that I've lived in and that I’ve visited. Cities are not a monolith. Each one has its own kind of flair and flavor and sense of how the city as a whole thinks of itself. But I do appreciate a lot of the variety that many cities bring to you and that there's a variety of people and experiences that are happening.

And my favorite cities are gridded cities where I can kind of navigate them. And it's how my brain works with direction. There's a kind of sense of the cardinal directions, north, east, south, west, and even if I'm going somewhere and I'm off by a block or two, that's fine. It's a grid. I'll just make the block, you know, I'll figure out the numbering or I'll go one street south or east to get to the next numbered street. But I never feel like I won't figure it out. And I think that's another aspect that I like about cities, is they're challenging, but I do get a sense of a feeling of accomplishment as I learn them. And I can see that, I've gotten to know the city. I've figured it out. It feels like home. I can find my way toward a sense of connecting with the city and the people in the city. So, yeah, I enjoy cities.

And the follow up, do you find all cities to be challenging or is there like something about cities that's inherently challenging?

What's inherently challenging about cities is probably one of the dynamics that I was pointing at, which is that they're all different. They all have a kind of different culture and pace and feel. The levels of accessibility are different. The way a city thinks about itself, its history that shapes the city itself can be challenging. You know, I think about some of my favorite cities that I've lived in, and the grid is, you know, just kind of helps me a lot. And then in cities where it's not as clear sometimes, and this was my experience living in Atlanta, it was a city that I never felt like I really learned. And depending on where you live in it, there are elements that are incredible and fantastic and a sense of community. And then you'll hit a highway that curves and it's there to separate people, it’s history is that it was intentionally built to separate people.

And I was fascinated by incredible parks and trails, and they've done a lot to connect the trails there in Atlanta. But then there'll just be sections of the city with no sidewalk. And I just don't have a sense of how to understand that: a city with no sidewalks. What are you talking about? So that's what I think of sometimes as far as cities can be challenging. The other dynamic of challenging cities is the barrier to entry, the financial barrier to entry. And that varies depending on the city and the context and why you're there or moving there. And so that varies. But that's also something that is happening in cities that impacts your experience,what neighborhoods you're trying to land in and/or live in and/or experience.

Can you tell me about a memorable urban experience you have had?

Yes, yes. So a memorable urban experience. My mind lands on public transportation. I love public transportation. I value it. It is also the way in which I judge or measure a city and my level of respect for a city and the city planning. So there's always a public transportation story of, you know, so many memorable stories of the El in Chicago. Many memorable stories already of the subway here and buses here in New York. I have so many, it’s hard to pick just one. One that has popped into my mind is this story that I sometimes tell to friends and family, and it embarrasses him. But one of my most memorable city stories is meeting my husband. So my husband and I went to college together.

We went to Loyola University in Chicago, which has the main campus in Rogers Park neighborhood. The campus in Rogers Park is very much contained but it is in a kind of porous way with the city, right on the lakefront, and it has a very kind of uniform campus feel to it. One edge is the lake, one edge is basically right into Rogers park, and it has some tall buildings but it has the kind of city feel to it in the background. And I was walking to class one day with one of my friends, and she's like, oh, I want to introduce you to someone. We have the same major, and we're in a lot of classes together. As we were walking and crossing the streetI was like, who's she talking about? Are we just walking up to some random person? Because it was in this part of campus where it was like, literally right the campus and the city. I'm trying to remember the main street that bends right there. Yes. That, like, takes a bend right there and then it runs north and south.

Is that North Sheridan?

I think it is, it's called Sheridan Road there in that stretch, I know it changes names a little bit after Lakeshore Drive dead ends and then comes up north. So it's like, who is she talking about? And then she's like, this is John. And John was there with his friend Matt. And John, I want to introduce you to my roommate, Jen. I met him and we chatted a little bit. And I just remember it was kind of like this on campus yet off campus city moment in front of this high rise building that was one of the main buildings on campus. And it was a really memorable moment. In the moment, I’m just meeting just someone in the city, and yet there was something happening there.

And then we all decided to go out to dinner one time, and that's when I really got to know John and get a sense of him. And that was also a very memorable city moment. We went to this bar and restaurant that's been in Rogers Park forever, and it was just a kind of a classic Chicago bar. And yet it was more than that. Right? It was a kind of formative moment in our relationship, but it turns out to also be a kind of foundational moment for the life that we've built.

Wow, That's a beautiful story.

[It was] Moody's Pub in Rogers Park.

How supportive do you feel the city is to your needs?

Okay. So I'm going to reflect on: how supportive do you feel the city is to your needs? I'll reflect based on New York and having lived here for the last five years, I think in many ways it's been a good experience. There are spaces that are supportive of the things that I need and I want. I think there are, of course, areas for improvement. And I do think navigating the city as a woman and navigating it as a black woman, there are interactions that are sometimes challenging and where I don't feel as supportive. For the last five years, I've lived in this neighborhood, the West Village, and then I move around different areas and neighborhoods. 

I've kind of created a routine and structure and spaces that I visit and revisit. So they know me. They, you know, they see me and they have a sense of what I'm trying to do is I navigate the neighborhood and are supportive in that way. But that is connected, I think, with a kind of repeating presence in neighborhoods and finding a way to connect with different parts of the neighborhood where you feel like you're connecting or trying to build community. I think in New York, though, and it's not like this in every neighborhood because cities are never monoliths, there are dynamics of New York where there's not always a kind of sense that everyone's welcome.

A few years ago, I had a knee injury that required surgery. And navigating this city as someone with limited ability, or either short-term or long-term mobility challenges, is difficult. New York is like: good luck. Stairs, ramps, or changes in tile to what is just like slick stairs when it rains or snows; kind of salting, but not really, you know, things I was more used to in Chicago, like you got salt everywhere in the winter in Chicago. It is just not here consistently. So navigating the city, if you have any sort of ability or mobility challenges, it's not easy. It's really not easy. And then I think the other dynamic of feeling supported in a city like New York is financial. I mean, this city with all of its incredible opportunities and richness is financially challenging. My husband and I talk about that a lot. His mom, when we were first moving here said: it's so big, it's not Chicago, are you sure about where you’re moving?

Are you going to be safe? And my husband said to his mother: you know Jen and I, we know to look out for each other. We're always paying attention. I'm always watching what's going on with her. And he said, but we'll be okay. He added: the thing I'm most worried about and that I think is a safety or a danger or a concern is financial. It's like this city is financially dangerous. And he remarked: oh, I'm kind of joking but not completely. I think he’s right, that's real, and New York is special in that way.

[That is] something I've heard from other people about this project, too.

It is financially challenging. And then also there's just this fear moments of precarity and that our conscience is. That doesn't always feel like a city that is supportive. It is financially challenging. And then also there's just these moments of fear and precarity that we’re conscious of, and thus. That doesn't always feel like a city that is supportive.

Do you feel included in the city (as a person of value)?

Well, so let me not start with the financial angle. I'll not go in the reverse order of what I was talking about. The question about being supportive. I think about a lot of my time here as a kind of personal and professional binary. I moved here for a job. So part of being in New York is about my professional experience and choices. So I'll try to answer the question in that way. And that's kind of why I'm thinking about it in that way. I think the work that I do, I think people recognize what I bring to the table and where I'm trying to contribute, and really try to leave some sort of impact based on the work that I do.

And so in that way, I think what I bring to the table is valued in a broader context and timeline. Day to day it definitely doesn't always feel like that. The day to day professional moments vary in the sense of feeling valued, and it varies personally and in spaces that are outside of work. You know, I think I've found that to be my experience in New York. How I entered the city and when I entered the city has had an impact on my experience. So I entered New York City in March 2020. I still don’t have the words to describe the experience. Individual people were inhabiting the communities and the city more broadly. But that was formative for me. I was surprised coming from a Midwestern city, and seeing here in New York examples of what people sometimes say is a Midwestern sensibility.

Like you say hello if someone makes eye contact with you. But I didn't expect that to happen here and it did. And so in that way I've had moments in New York over the last five years where I feel valued and to the other point and one of your other questions, I feel seen. Right. So in this neighborhood, I think it's a particular neighborhood as far as how people are seeing each other in the West Village too. Something specific is happening here that maybe isn't happening in other spaces. But if I make eye contact with someone walking down the street randomly, I'm not like seeking it out, it’s just people passing each other in the world, and if I make eye contact and I say hello to someone, they will say hello back.

Or if I make eye contact with someone who's walking their dog, then they say good morning to me. And so in that small way, some might see it as a kind of throwaway, but I experience it as being valued and being seen.

What would make the city more convenient for you?

[The city being] cheaper, I think. Yeah, the financial dynamics are different. New York specifically. So again, still reflecting on New York as the city that I'll reference for this question. I think that the neighborhood that I've chosen to live in for the last few years also has some dynamics of some of the neighborhoods where I've lived in Chicago. And so it feels that like “home” because there are elements that kind of remind me of Chicago. It's not the same, but there are these kinds of remnants and reminders, you know, a tactility to New York City that at times makes me think of Chicago. But what would make it easier, more than just cheaper? Cheaper is number one, two, and three to change. So, I'm trying to think of what would be number four. Again, I think about this neighborhood; there are elements to it that allow for the things that I want to be able to do or access on a day-to-day basis.

Public transportation, outdoor spaces, public waterfront spaces that are open to anyone, you know. So those things I appreciate about New York and those are also things that I appreciate about cities that I've lived in or that I've visited. There are always sidewalks and there are parks or stretches of space that you can't build on. It's public space. And as you know, Chicago had long stretches of the waterfront that as part of its design and city planning, you couldn't build on. Now, is it always easy to get to those public spaces regardless of where you're at in the city? No, but I think for where I've landed, that kind of accessibility has been good for me.

Yeah, again, I really like living here. So there's not much, based on my experience over the last few years that I feel I would seek to change to better support me or the things that I'd like to do and experience.

And as a follow up to that. Was when you moved here, was that like in the consideration of where you all wanted to live or did you look for these things?

Not so much. Again, I have been answering some of these questions about New York specifically, not urban spaces generally, because I moved here for a work opportunity. So since my husband and I decided to move here and it was for a position and professional opportunity for me, he was really focused in our conversations on the fact that we're moving for this purpose, and where we live should be primarily oriented about me going back and forth to this work experience. That is the whole reason we're moving here. So we looked in a few different neighborhoods and different areas, but it was always kind of oriented to how I was going to get to work? How long will it take? What will it look like as far as changing buses, changing trains, etc.?

We've lived in different cities and in different neighborhoods and had to make those commuting calculations and adjustments. And it impacts your day-to-day experience. Right? The length of your workday includes the commuting time. And commuting takes away from the time that you have available to spend time with family, friends, and to have restorative moments. And so in many ways, we had a sense of what my new job would take and the amounts of time expenditure and energy expenditure that we anticipated for me in the job. And so it was really intentional of us to not create a situation where we were tacking on more. We had to see a complete calculation of a workday.

Who is part of your community?

Oh, yeah. So I'll answer it like this. My family and my friends, my husband and some of his longtime family and friends are all part of our community. My husband and I don't have children, but we have a lot of godchildren. We are the godparents that show up for everything. And we always have the gifts and we bring the gifts that annoy the parents. The first and second birthdays were always the obnoxious stuffed animals. And then were always the godparents that would give the noisy gifts once they got to a certain age. So we always show up. And showing up is important. So that's definitely part of my community and my family. And then this question makes me think quite a bit about what my husband and I talk a lot about, which is when we moved away from Chicago, we had grown up in the area, education, all in the area. And so we had an arc of people that were part of our community. And when we left the city and moved to another city, we realized we had to recreate our social support.

We had to navigate and find people that we could connect with, had common interests or that were interested in our interests, or they were simply interested in us. Because it doesn't just happen always. You don't have the same structures as you age. Well, this person and I are in the same classes together, or they live down the block, or our parents know each other, and so we became friends because they lived nearby when we were little kids. Each time we've moved, we’ve been quite intentional. This is the city we live in, community doesn't always happen by chance, we have to do the work in an intentional way, and sometimes put ourselves out there a little bit more to create that sense of a new community.

Because for us, the family and friends we have around us are all part of our kind of social support network, and yet they don't all live here. And having that social support network in the area that we live in, that is something that's important to us. It's something that also helps us in our experience of whatever city we move to. And I think it also shapes not only our experience of that city, but also our memories of it. Right? Our stories of it. We were talking about memorable stories. A lot of times that's shaped by the intentional community and social connections that we have to build when we move to a new city or a new neighborhood or as we're living in a city.

What else should we know about how you feel about cities?

Anything else that I want to share about how I feel about cities? I mean, I talked about my love of cities and how I feel in them. About the variety, even if it's hard to touch or reach the sense of possibility of a city. I like the variety of people that also sometimes connect or come together in cities. I'm wishful that there could be more people interacting with each other, not just kind of being adjacent to each other. In New York and with how I feel about New York, I have really grown to feel that it's a special city. It's. I've created great memories here. I love living here.

It feels like home to me. I do feel like the financial challenges are real, and that's something that the city of New York could work on. I think there's some improvement opportunities around how spaces are accessible, both physically and financially, and some of the financial precarity that people of this city feel and experience in a very real way. And that's also how I feel about this and other cities: incredible opportunity, but also one of the challenges of cities is they're not always structured for everyone. They're structured in a way that is often shaped by financial dynamics, history, race, gender, accessibility, or ability and mobility.

Those mixed feelings of a city I also appreciate because you see the possibility and the variety. You see the challenges. But there's still a possibility, right? There are still cities constantly remaking themselves, changing, being challenged. We're not doing well here. We could do better. And so I enjoy that about a city, even if it's an area that is an obstacle or needs improvement. I think there's still that sense of: well, it could change. And I don't always feel that about other spaces that just don't have the kind of volume, resources, space, or attention because there just aren't as many people, there aren't as many eyes looking at where there needs to be changes or improvements. So I also appreciate that about cities.

You know, even though it can take a long time and certain things can't change, for example and as you know, Chicago has a lot of alleys, back alleys, which I kind of like that's where the trash goes. We're not putting alleys in New York to make new spaces for where the trash is going to go. But there still is this feeling of the possibility of malleability and I appreciate that about cities.