Who are you?

I am Jen. And who I am is a black woman. Think of myself as a sister, a daughter, a granddaughter, a wife, a friend. And many of my friends are actually now part of my family. They're friends, but they're really family members. I think of myself and who I am as a collaborator. My background is as a researcher and scientist. So those are all kind of elements of who I am and how I think of myself.

How do you identify?

I identify as a black woman. I think there's many elements to that. There's many intersectionalities that are happening there. Many layers. Many layers to being a black woman. But that's. That's how I identify.

How do you want to/prefer to be seen?

I think for me it is important to me to be seen. I think it's in some ways connected to my personality, but it was also connected very much to family legacy and the way my parents raised me and my brother and where they really did a lot of work with us around trying to create experiences where were at least exposed to different dynamics in the world or exposed to things that we would at least have a kind of sense about and familiarity and that people wouldn't necessarily say, oh, you don't know what this is, and kind of make us feel separate or othered.

I think those exposure moments also helped us to become more comfortable in spaces where, okay, well, I don't know about this, but I can just ask. I can be interested in something. I don't have to know everything. And sometimes being exposed to enough moments or challenges or experiences or opportunities, it teaches you how to be seen and to speak up in spaces that are new or unknown. And then I think the other dynamic of being seen is also something that my parents really instilled in both my brother and I, but did it in different ways because of some gender dynamics and to some of the dynamics that were talking about around being a black woman in spaces. And that sense of sometimes you have to.

They wanted to prepare me to speak for myself, to advocate for myself, to take up space and be seen, because people are not always going to give it to you or have a sense of, I should help this person like I help others. And sometimes I think people don't for a variety of reasons. Historically gendered racial dynamics, that's not always happening for black women. And so they really tried to build this sense of confidence and exposure and experience, but also a kind of sensibility of “you have to take up space” and it's important to be seen because people aren't going to necessarily do that for you or feel a sense of obligation. And so I try to think about that in moments and in professional settings.

It takes work like that's a process to kind of walk into a space and be like, “I am here to contribute and this is what I can bring to the table and this will advance because I am entering this space,” taking up space and being seen in my personal and family and friend life. It's not work, it's not an energy expenditure. It's not a process in professional settings or in new settings that are, you know, I'm entering into a new social space or meeting people for the first time. Then it takes a little bit more work and process to get there. And then in professional settings, it takes work, it takes practice. I had noted for you that someone described it for me once, as sometimes it takes a certain level of irrational confidence. And so I have to kind of gear myself up to get there in order to be seen in those moments and do what it takes. And then in other more personal spaces, it's not, it doesn't feel like so much of an energy expenditure process. [It] feels different. That feels different.

And I have a follow up around experience where you talked about how your parents wanted to expose you and your brother [to new things]. Did they tell you why they were doing that?

Oh, yeah. I think for them it was also about how and when they grew up, they grew up and limitations or opportunities that were not presented to them or that they couldn't access. And so they wanted to create those opportunities for my brother and I in some ways because they didn't have those paths or opportunities or they were limited from those because they were expected to do something else because of how they grew up and their family dynamics and work opportunities that they felt they could have done but were the structures and exposure wasn't there. And so I think they were intentional about it. I think they, after the fact they would make certain points to us, but also in the moment, they would do that too.

With, you know, whether it was going to Chicago and experiencing Chicago, having, you know, grown up outside of Chicago or you know, trying different things, going to museums, going to restaurants, you know, just even simple things. We want you to always feel like you can navigate these spaces because they sometimes had experiences where people were either limiting them in those spaces or trying to kind of either show them up or use certain moments and spaces to really be like, oh, see, I told you this person isn't. They're not ready for this. They're not part of this. They're [and] other. And they I think in some ways wanted us to have those moments of exposure, but also then understand what's happening there. “You belong in this space. You can enter this restaurant, you can be curious about art, books, movies, museums, travel.” And so I think they were oftentimes quite intentional about it in the moment and trying to help both my brother and I understand that and then I think, especially in moments where, for me, recognizing this, our daughter will be a black woman in these spaces in the future. And we need to prepare [you now] for what that's going to be [like]. And maybe the world will change over time as she grows up, but probably not.

Thank you for [sharing that with] me. Yeah. I'm glad they did that. Even though it's unfortunate that, like, you have to…that we have to… Well, I'm not a black woman, [but] as a black person, that we have to be prepared for that.

Could you tell me why you live in a city?

I appreciate cities for the variety, the opportunity, even if it's not always something that is easily accessible or immediately accessible because of finances or limited space or whatever the dynamic might be. That's a limitation or obstacle. But I feel like [in] cities there's this kind of sensibility of possibility. And so I really enjoy that about cities. I'm talking about this in the context of some of my most favorite cities that I've lived in and that I visited. And so they're not a monolith. Each one has its own kind of flair and flavor and sense of how the city as a whole thinks of itself. But I do appreciate a lot of the variety that many cities bring to you, and that there's a variety of people and experiences that are happening.

My favorite cities are gridded cities where I can kind of navigate them. And it's how my brain works with direction. And, you know, that there's a kind of sense of a cardinal directions, northeast, southwest, and that even if I'm going somewhere and I'm off by a block or two, that's fine. It's a grid. I'll just make the block, you know, I'll figure out the numbering or I'll go one street south or east to get to the next numbered street. But I never feel like I won't figure it out. And I think that's another aspect that I like about cities, is they're challenging. But I do get a sense of a feeling of accomplishment. And I'm like, I've gotten to know the city. I've figured it out. It feels like home. I have a sense of connecting with people in the city. So, yeah, I enjoy cities.

And the follow up, do you find all cities to be challenging or is there like something about cities that's inherently challenging?

What's inherently challenging about cities is probably one of the dynamics that I was pointing at, which is that they're all different. They all have a kind of different culture and pace and feel. The levels of accessibility are different. The way it thinks about itself, it's history that shapes the city itself can be challenging. You know, I think about some of my favorite cities that I've lived in, and the grid is, you know, just kind of helps me a lot. And then in cities where it's not as clear it sometimes, and this was my experience living in Atlanta, it was a city I. I never felt like I really learned. And depending on where you live in it, there are elements that are incredible and fantastic and a sense of community. And then you'll hit a highway that curves and it's actually to separate people.

And I was fascinated by the incredible parks and trails, and they've done a lot to connect the trails there. And then there'll just be sections of the city with no sidewalk. And I'm like, I just don't have a sense of that. Like a city with no sidewalk. What are you talking about? So that's what I think of sometimes as far as cities can be challenging. And then I think the other dynamic of challenging cities is the barrier to entry, the financial barrier to entry. And that varies depending on the city and the context, and why you're moving there. And so that varies. But that's also something that is happening in cities. And depending on what neighborhoods you're trying to land in or live in or experience.

Can you tell me about a memorable urban experience you have had?

I love public transportation. I value [it a lot]. It is also the way in which I may judge or measure a city or my level of respect, perhaps for a city in the city planning. So there's always a public transportation story of, you know, many memorable stories of the El (the Chicago public transit system is called the El). Many memorable stories already of the subway here and buses here. But, yeah, a really memorable urban or city [expereince]... So I have so many. So I'll pick just one. And the one I was thinking of that kind of popped into my mind was this story that I sometimes tell to friends and family, and it embarrasses him. But one of my most memorable city stories is meeting my husband. So my husband and I went to college together.

We went to Loyola University in Chicago, which is in Rogers Park and has a campus downtown. But the campus in Rogers Park is very much contained and in a kind of porous way, but right on the lakefront, you know, it has a very uniform campus feel to it. And then you're kind of right there. The edge of it then is basically right in Rogers Park. So. And has some tall buildings, but it has the kind of City feel in the background. And I was walking to class one day with one of my friends, and she's like, “Oh, I want to introduce you to someone. We have the same major. We're in a lot of classes together.” And so were walking and crossing the street. And so I was like, “Who's she talking about?” Just like, just. Are we just walking up to some random person? You know, because it was like in this part of campus where it was like, literally right there. I'm trying to remember the main street that bends right there and then goes through. That, like, takes a bend right there, and then it runs.

Is that North Sheridan?

I think it is, it's called Sheridan there because I know it changes names a little bit as after Lakeshore Drive dead ends and then comes up north. So it's like, “Who is she talking about?” And then she's like, “Oh, you know, this is John.” And John was there with his friend Matt. [my friend said] “This is John I want to introduce to my roommate, Jen. This is John, Matt.” And so I met him and we chatted a little bit. And I just remember it was like kind of this on campus, off campus moment in front of, like, this high rise building. It was one of the main buildings on campus. And it was just a really memorable moment. But in the moment, it was like, “Oh, just someone I'm meeting.” And yet something was happening there. And then we all decided to go out to dinner one time, and that's when I really kind of got to know John and got a sense of him. And it was, again, a very memorable city moment. We went to this bar and restaurant that's been in Rogers Park forever, and it was just a kind of a bar in a city. And yet it was more than that. Right. It was a kind of formative moment both in our relationship, but it's a kind of foundational moment for the life that we've built.

Wow, That's a beautiful story.

[It was] Moody's Pub in Rogers Park.

How supportive do you feel the city is to your needs?

So I'd say I'll reflect on this. Based on New York and having lived here for the last five years, I think in. In many ways it's. It's been a good experience. It's. There's spaces that are supportive of the things that I need and I want. I think there's, of course, areas for improvement. And I do think navigating the city as a woman and navigating as a black woman, there's interactions that are sometimes challenging and don't feel as supportive. So I'd say, you know, for the most part, for the last five years, I've lived in this neighborhood, so I live in the West Village. And then I move around different areas and neighborhoods.

I've kind of created a routine and structure and spaces that I visit and revisit. So they know me. They, you know, they see me and they have a sense of what I'm trying to do is I navigate the neighborhood and [they] are supportive in that way. But that is connected, I think, with a kind of repeating in neighborhoods and finding a way to connect with different parts of the neighborhood where you feel like you're connecting or trying to build community. I think in New York, though, and it's not like this in every neighborhood. Cities are never monoliths, right? But I think, you know, there's dynamics of New York where there's not always a sense of everyone's welcome. A few years ago, I had a knee injury that required surgery. And navigating this city as someone with limited ability, long term mobility challenges, New York is like “good luck.” Stairs, ramps, or changes in tile to what is just like slick stairs when it rains or snow kind of salting, but not really, you know, things I was more used to in Chicago, like you got salt [spread on the ground] everywhere. It was just kind of not here. So navigating the city, if you have any sort of ability or mobility challenges, it's not easy. It's really not easy.

And then I think the other dynamic of, you know, feeling supported in a city like New York is financial. I mean, this city with all of its incredible opportunities and richness is financially challenging. My husband and I joke. His mom, when were first moving here, was said: “You know, it's. You know, it's so big. It's not Chicago. Are you sure about where you're moving? Are you going to be safe?” And my husband John said to his mother, he said, “You know, Jen and I, we know to look out for each other. We're always paying attention. I'm always watching what's going on with her.” And he said: “But we'll be okay. Really, the only thing I'm most worried about that I think is like a safety or a danger concern is financial. It's like this city is financially dangerous.” And he's like, “Oh, I'm kind of joking, but I think that's real New York. It is special in that way.”

That's very. Yeah. That theme keeps coming up. It's like, how do the prices keep going up and our wages don't go up?

It is financially challenging. And then also there's just this fear moments of precarity and that our conscience is. That doesn't always feel like a city that is supportive.

Do you feel included in the city (as a person of value)?

Well, so let me not start with the financial angle. I'll not go in the reverse order of what I was talking about. The question about being supportive. I think, you know, in many ways, I think about a lot of my time here as a kind of personal and professional binary. I moved here for a job. So part of being in New York is about my professional experience and choices. So I'll talk, I'll answer the question in kind of that way. And that's kind of why I'm thinking about it in that way. I think the work that I do, I think people recognize what I bring to the table and where I'm trying to contribute, and really try to leave some sort of impact based on the work that I do.

And so in that way, I think what I bring to the table is valued in a broader context and timeline. Day to day that doesn't always feel like that. So the day to day professional moments that varies the sense of feeling valued personally and in spaces that are outside of work. You know, I think I've found that to be my experience in New York. I didn't expect and it might have been about how I entered the city and when I entered the city. So I entered in March 2020. And that was a. I don't even still have the words to describe the experience. Individual people were habiting the communities and the city more broadly. But that was formative in how I entered the city. And what I was surprised coming from a Midwestern city [is] what people sometimes say [is a] Midwestern sensibility.

Like you say “hello” if someone makes eye contact with you. But I didn't expect that to happen here, and it did. And so in that way, I've had moments in New York over the last five years where I feel valued, and to the other point, and one of your other questions, I feel seen. So in this neighborhood, I think it's a particular [part of the] neighborhood in the West Village too. So something specific is happening here that maybe isn't happening in other spaces. But if I make eye contact with someone walking down the street, just like randomly, I'm not like, you know, seeking it out. But we are people passing each other in the world. If I make eye contact and I say hello to someone, they will say hello back. Or if I make eye contact with someone who's walking their dog, they would say good morning to me. And so in that way it's small. Some might see it as a kind of a throwaway. But I, I experience it as being valued and, and being seen.

What would make the city more convenient for you?

[The city being] cheaper, I think. Yeah, the financial dynamics are different. New York specifically. So again, still reflecting on New York as the city that I'll reference for this question. I think again, the neighborhood that I've chosen to live in for the last few years also has some dynamics of some of the neighborhoods I've lived in Chicago. And so it feels that like, “home”, because there's elements that kind of remind me of Chicago. It's not the same, but there's a kind of remnant, you know, a tactility to it that makes me think of Chicago. But would it make it easier, more than just cheaper? Cheaper is, that's like number one, two, and three. So I'm trying to think of what would be number four. Again, I think the things about this neighborhood, it really, there are elements to it that allow for the things that I want to be able to do or access on a day to day basis.

Public transportation, outdoor spaces, public waterfront spaces that are just open to anyone, you know. So those [are] things I appreciate about New York and those are also things that I appreciate about cities that I've lived in or that I've visited or that I didn't like about a city that I was in. There's always sidewalks and there's parks or stretches of space that you can't build on. It's public space. And as you know, Chicago had long stretches of the waterfront that as part of its design and city planning, you couldn't build on. Now, is it always easy to get to those public spaces regardless of where you're at in the city? No, but I think for where I've landed, you know, that kind of accessibility has been good for me. I, again, I really like living here. So there's not much, based on my experience over the last few years that I feel I would seek to change to better support me or the things that I'd like to do and experience.

And as a follow up to that. Was when you moved here, was that like in the consideration of where you all wanted to live or did you look for these things?

Not so much. Again, I have been answering some of these questions about New York specifically because I moved here for a work opportunity. So since moving here, since my husband and I decided to move here and it was for a position and professional opportunity for me, he was really focused in our conversations of if we're moving for this purpose, where we live should be in Some way primarily oriented about you going back and forth to this work experience. That is the whole reason we're moving here. So we looked in a few different neighborhoods and different areas, but it was always kind of oriented to how are you going to get to work? How long will it take? What will it look like as far as changing buses, changing trains?

Because we've lived in cities where we've lived in different neighborhoods and had to make those adjustments, and it impacts your day-to-day experience. Right. The length of your workday includes the commuting time. And it takes away from the time that you have available to spend time with family, friends, to think, to have restorative moments. And so in many ways, everyone had a sense of what the work would take and the amount of time and time expenditure, energy expenditure that we anticipated for me in the job that I was moving here for. And so it was really intentional of us to not create a situation where we just are tacking on more to outweigh. We see a complete calculation of a workday. So. Yeah.

Who is part of your community?

Oh, yeah. So I'll answer it like this. My family and my friends, my husband and some of his longtime family and friends are all part of our community. My husband and I don't have children, but we have a lot of godchildren. We are the godparents that show up for everything. And we always have the gifts and we bring the gifts that annoy the parents. The first and second birthdays were always the obnoxious stuffed animals. And then were always the godparents that would give the noisy gifts once they got to a certain age. So we always show up. And showing up is important. So that's definitely part of my community and my family. And then this question makes me think quite a bit about what my husband and I talk a lot about, which is when we moved away from Chicago, we had grown up in the area, education, all in the area. And so we had an arc of people that were part of our community. And when we left the city and moved to another city, we realized we had to recreate our social support.

We had to navigate and find people that we could connect with, common interests or that were interested in, or they were interested in us. Because it doesn't just happen always. You don't have the same structures of. Well, this person and I are in the same classes together or they live down the block or our Parents know each other, and so we became friends because they lived, you know, nearby when were little kids. So we have really, each time we've moved, been quite intentional about. This is the city we live in. And community doesn't always happen by chance. And so we have to do the work in an intentional way, sometimes put ourselves out there a little bit more to create that sense of a new community.

Because for us, the family and friends we have around us are all part of our kind of social support network, and yet they don't live here. And so not having that social support network in the area that we live, it's something that's important to us. It's something that also helps us in our experience of whatever city we move to. And I think it also shapes not only our experience of that city, but also our memories of it. Right. Our stories of it. We were talking about memorable stories. A lot of times that's shaped by the intentional community and social connections that we have to build when we move to a new city or a new neighborhood or as we're. We're living in a city.

What else should we know about how you feel about cities?

I talked about, you know, my love of cities, how I feel [about them]. About the variety, I think how I feel, even if it's hard touch or reach the sense of possibility of a city, I like the variety of people that also sometimes connect or come together in cities, maybe not always connecting. I think that's sometimes something I feel about a city that I'm. I'm wishful for, that there could be more of. Of people interacting with each other, not just kind of being adjacent to each other. I mean, you know, again, in New York, how I feel about New York is…I have really grown to feel it's a special city. I've created great memories here. I love living here.

It feels like home to me. I do feel like the financial challenges are real, and that's something that the city of New York could work on. I think there's some improvement opportunities there around how spaces are accessible, both physically and financially, and some of the financial precarity that people of this city feel and experience in a very real way. And so that's also how I feel about cities. Incredible opportunity. But also, one of the challenges of cities is that they're not always structured for everyone. They're structured in a way that is often shaped by financial dynamics, history, race, gender, accessibility, ability, and mobility. And so I feel that about cities as well.

But in some ways, I think that's the mixed feelings of a city I also appreciate, because you see the possibility and the variety. You see the challenges. It's a “both and.” But there's still a possibility, right? There's still cities constantly remaking themselves, changing, being challenged. We're not doing well here. We could do better. And so I enjoy that about a city, even if it's an area that is an obstacle or needs improvement. I think there's still that sense of well, it could change. And I don't always feel that about other spaces that just don't have the kind of volume or resource space or attention because there just aren't as many people, there aren't as many eyes looking at where there need to be changes or improvement. So I also appreciate that about cities.

You know, they even though it can take a long time and certain things can't change, you know, Chicago has a lot of alleys, back alleys, which I kind of like that's where the trash goes. We're not putting alleys here where the trash is going to go. But there still has sometimes this feeling of the possibility of malleability and I appreciate that about cities.